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Topic: 13 chord
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posted August 14, 2003 08:48 PM
  
So, I have this funky jazz tune that I wrote and I came up with the vamp part starting with G#13 to G13. I've worked out a pretty good improve over it, but any more suggestions to make the improve more enteresting would be very helpful. I'm very knowledgable of theory, scales, and modes, but sometimes it's just down right good to hear it from another guitarist with a different approach. Thanx.IP: Logged |
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posted August 15, 2003 08:35 AM
If you're looking for suggestions.. I'll throw some out... Since you're building on G13 - which is altered 7th chord, you could use that as a starting point around the circle.. it would resolve 'naturally' to a CMaj7.. but.. you could also go up to Bbmin7 and then work down from that.. ex.. treat it as a ii to resolve to Eb7 to AbMaj7... or .. treat it as a vi and it would resolve to Ebm7 to Ab7 to DbMa7.. replace the Dbmaj7 with a Db7 and you have the tritone sub for G7(13) your starting point... Or.. instead of Bbm7.. go to Bbm7b5 and build it to a minor ii-V.. Bbm7b5 - EbAlt - Abmin.. there's a couple to play with.. rich IP: Logged |
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posted August 17, 2003 12:11 PM
Cool stuff there Del. I will have to go through each of your comments line by line to see how you analyzed all of this. I am not sure how you treat the 'G13' as the 'ii' or 'vi' Chord--since it clearly is not minor but dominant...but for now I will take your word on it. But I guess the only real difference between a G13 and Gm13 is the Minor 3rd. So it could act as a substitution.I also thought that a: G#13 - G13 - Gaug7 - Gm7 vamp sounds pretty cool as well. IP: Logged |
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posted August 17, 2003 07:22 PM
I think my use of the word "it" is the confusing part. Yes.. I agree.. the G13 isn't a ii or a vi.. I was referring to the Bbm7.. I got to the Bbm7 from the G13 by going up a minor third from the G as the starting point to start the cycle again in a different key.. That's all... From there, the Bbm7 is treated (in my suggestion..) as either a ii of vi.. I guess without hearing the vamp he's working from.. Im not sure if it would even sound ok.. Moving a minor 3rd seems to be a pretty common tool in jazz (ala Coltrane?) Like your idea.. with the different extensions yet staying close to home at the same time... delreds
btw: always enjoy your replies.. you have a great way of explaining things... keep up the great stuff IP: Logged |
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posted August 18, 2003 01:18 AM
Delereds, your second post explaining the meaning of "it" cleared it up a lot, but I'm still lost on the very starting point. Why did you choose Bbmin7?"you could use that as a starting point around the circle.. it would resolve 'naturally' to a CMaj7.. but.. you could also go up to Bbmin7 and then work down from that" Why or how does the G13 go up to Bbmin7 via the Circle of 5ths? IP: Logged |
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posted August 18, 2003 02:04 AM
I believe "...G13 - which is altered 7th chord..." in the second post above should read:
"G13 - which is an extended [dominant] 7th chord".IP: Logged |
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posted August 18, 2003 03:04 AM
Hehe....I wondered who would catch this. IP: Logged |
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posted August 18, 2003 08:30 AM
One thing I like to do when jamming on one Dominant Chord is build a Chord off each note in the chord using the notes of the key.For instance with a G7 chord the notes are
G, B, D, F So the substitue chords to use would be
Bm7b5
Dm7
FM7 Don't make radical changes to these chords.
just do little stabs at them for a beat or so, staying in whatever your rhythm structure is.
It's hard to explain in text, but would only take a few seconds to show in person. The concept works for any chord.
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posted August 18, 2003 09:01 AM
am i the only one who can only see the first two posts on this thread? The count shows seven posts.. (not counting this one.. ) but I can only see two..I've cleared my cache.. but no luckIP: Logged |
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posted August 18, 2003 10:19 AM
DMT: Thanks for correcting me on my 'altered'.. yes.. it's extended.. sorry..dux.. I chose Bbm7 to break the cycle to move to a different spot on the circle.. like I said earlier.. Bb is a minor third away from G.. and it works well to move out of the key... why?? dunno.. I could try to 'theorize' it.. but you guys obviously know more theory than I -- so not sure it would be a correct explanation.. I do know I can use the 'diminished' connection on the circle as a way to move about the circle in different keys.. (connect the four notes of the Gdim chord on the circle.. it makes a perfect square in the circle..note the key opposite of your starting point is the tri-tone sub for the chord (eg.. db7 to sub G7) that's why I picked Bb.. why minor verses 'dom7'?? again- just key selection.. I suppose you could use the Bb7 and resolve from there... make sense???
delreds
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posted August 18, 2003 11:11 AM
Del:I never really questioned what you were doing. I just thought you were using the 'G13' as the 'ii or vi' Chord. So "it" actually came down to what your definition of "is" is. =) More importanlty however, I just picked up a guitar and it sounded right to my ear....Bottom line....this is all that counts. IP: Logged |
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posted August 18, 2003 06:54 PM
Delreds, that was me, not Dux who asked why you went to Bbm7. I see what you're saying now. I've never heard of that as any official kind of Jazz chord substitution"procedure" before, but like Dux said, it sounds good. The Circle of Fifths comment was throwing me though, and the chords you came up with were interesting sounding, so I just thought I'd try to get a better handle on where you're coming from.Would you mind writing out completely your final two chord progressions? I personally essentially never use altered chords, so I want to play around with what you came up with. In this case I don't really care about the theory, I just want to see your chords all in a row so I can work out the fingerings and see if it's for me. Dux - Another case of mistaken identity! IP: Logged |
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posted August 18, 2003 07:02 PM
quote:
Delreds said:I do know I can use the 'diminished' connection on the circle as a way to move about the circle in different keys.. (connect the four notes of the Gdim chord on the circle.. it makes a perfect square in the circle..note the key opposite of your starting point is the tri-tone sub for the chord (eg.. db7 to sub G7)
Ah ha! NOW I understand. I knew you could use the dim chord to change keys, and I had messed with the idea briefly when I first learned it years ago, but I have no practical knowledge of it. I don't use this, and, while not forgotten, it was just sort of useless trivia for me. Now that you've explained how you used it, I suddenly can see much better how it works in practice. Very interesting (for me)! I have to play around with this myself (but unfortunately I have to go to work in 15 minutes). IP: Logged |
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posted August 18, 2003 09:12 PM
Dux AND DMT!:smile: (that way I get at least one name right!  ) Ok.. I'll write out the chords in a row and then explain the diminished connection.. (then you two can figure out which answer is for which :grin: )The progression... Starting
G13 (key of C)
Bbm7 (min 3rd UP from G)
[i]Explanation of my understanding/use of the diminished connection: the four notes of a G diminished chord are: G, Bb, Db, E.. as you're aware they are all diminished chord by name also.. Note that on the circle.. that the line CW points to the relative minor of the starting point (eg.. G connect CW to E on Diminished pattern) The tritone substitution is directly opposite the G (Db) and then the Bb is CCW (or the 'natural flow direction of the circle (resolves around the 4th)... so you can use any of those three as jumping off points to change keys.. I chose Bb and made it a minor to give me room to play.. Ok.. now.. treat the Bbm7 as a ii and your entire progression is
G13-Bbm7-Eb7-Abma7 Treat the Bbm7 as a vi and you have...
G13-Bbm7-Ebm7-Ab7- Dbmaj7... to expound a bit on that and to get us back to G13 (or key of C).. you could replace the Ab7 with a Dm7 (tri-tone sub - then make it minor... which becomes the ii of C).. so it would be.. G13 - Bbm7-Ebm7-Dm7-G13-Cmaj7 Using the diminished 'zone' (as I call it) really came in clearer for me when I read an article on the chords to John Coltranes tune, "Giant Steps".. You also see the use of the diminished zone in songs like "all the things you are" as it goes through four different keys.. does that make sense?? Not sure if I explained it well.. but that was my 'thought process for the chords I selected.. Regarding the 'altered' aspect of it.. I would probably replace the other dom7 chords with #9's thoughts?
rich
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posted August 19, 2003 09:11 AM
Thanks. I'm going to be busy at work, so I'll check them out later.IP: Logged |
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