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zentao trademark & logoAccording to one artist, because art.com registers some 3 million visitors per month as opposed to relative newcomer ImageKind.com or other “sell-your-art-here” websites,

“there is no ball game besides art.com for decent traffic.”

Well, let’s look at what I consider to be one of the best online artist’s services website on the Internet, ImageKind.com.

Considering that ImageKind started at zero in May of 2006 and, as of May 2007, is approaching 45,000 per month for an 20240.2% increase in traffic…and climbing, I’d say, ImageKind is a pretty up and coming good prospect for artists.  This is especially true when you consider that ImageKind has integrity and treats artists very well.  And an artist sets their own prices and retains control of their artwork.

But, then, let’s go ahead and look at the numbers, then, shall we?  Using the same service that EmptyEasel did, a site called compete.com, we do a comparison of the websites available to most artists, namely: picassomio.com, boundlessgallery.com, ImageKind.com, and artistrising.com.  We’ll throw in Sistino.com for good measure. And just for fun, I added in my own site, zentao.com, even though it is not a “sell-your-art-here” website. 

So here are the numbers according to compete.com which, by the way, cut my traffic down to unique visitors only, not return visitors, nor any traffic that comes in from the major search engines using entrances to this huge, very old, and very messy, eclectic website.  How do I know this?  Because I run extensive stats, and verify them with an independent source which I choose not to name.  (Don’t want everybody and their doggy knowing my ways and means, you know. ;) )  I’ll list these statistics from compete.com from highest to lowest traffic.

art.com 3 million unique visitors per month

ImageKind.com 42,511 unique visitors per month

My website: zentao.com 24,806 unique visitors per month

boundlessgallery.com 23,839 unique visitors per month

sistino.com 19,500 unique visitors per month

picassomio.com 14,309 unique visitors per month

artistrising.com 9,903 unique visitors per month

 Our distressed artist quoted above claims that:

“there is no ball game besides art.com for decent traffic…. the other sites dont even register basically…..  art.com…. [has] basically a monopoly since traffic is the game.  Without traffic no admin tools, excellent layout or search functionality really matters…..  you can not multiply or divide by zero”

Well, I beg to differ.  First off, 10 thousand to 50 thousand quality visitors is divisible and multiplicable, and are nothing to sneeze at, even if half the number are artists looking at the market…which is true for any “sell-your-art-here/buy-your-art-here” website.  And I’d CERTAINLY rather have 25 thousand visitors looking specifically for my website and its content.  Much better to have quality visitors, all of them looking for and at my content than to have art.com’s 3 million who number:

  • “other artists” checking out the stats and competition
  • other competing websites seeing what they’re up to now
  • and generic visitors who are just looking for “anybody’s content,” and mostly looking for CHEAP content, at that

And that is what art.com offers — cheap prints by anyone dead or alive whose work will turn them a profit at their set prices, where the artist gets 15% of a sale of a low priced print, art.com setting the prices.  I’m sorry, but the usual is for the gallery to get 15% and the artist 85%.

What’s my point?  My point is, develop your own presence, artists.  People who are looking for YOUR art need to come to YOUR website.  Brand your own name, then use services like ImageKind to sell your art to them. 

Remember, it’s not traffic VOLUME; it’s the quality of traffic — traffic that wants to look at and maybe even buy YOUR art. 

zentao trademark and logoWell, it’s official.  Sistino will be no more.  ArtistRising, merging Sistino’s good points, will be the venue for beginning indie artists and wannabes over at the Art.com empire, and Art.com itself along with AllPosters.com will be limited to artists whose sales or content are proven to be lucrative.  Makes good business sense.

The 10% royalty payments are rising to 15%, but there will no longer be a royalty paid for framing, making a potential net loss of 5% income on sales for artists who regularly sold framed work instead of just prints. 

Artists still won’t set their own prices, a downside to Art.com, AllPosters, and ArtistRising as “sell-your-art-here” dot coms.

Art on art.com which hasn’t sold as of June 30, 2007, will be expunged from the art.com database.  This means an artist with no sales who has work on art.com will lose their place in that venue.  Artists who have sold will remain.  In order for new artists to get on board art.com, they will have to have a good sales record or their images be considered content that would sell well on the art.com market — trendy in home decor.

Does this make sense for art.com?  Yes. 

Is this making indie artists unhappy?  Yes and no.  At least they know where they stand, though many are very unhappy with what they consider to be the high-handed methods art.com has employed towards them during this transition period.  Some are rather upset that they are losing the framing royalties.

What do I think?  I think that artists are much too focused on someone else’s business model rather than on their own.  …And, remember, there’s always ImageKind.com, an up and coming online market venue which, so far, at least, is very “artist friendly” in its attitude.

zentao trademark and logoArt contests, valid or rigged, honest evaluations or peer accolades?

Yes and yes.

I watched with interest several nearby “real world” art contests.  Three were “juried,” two were “open,” and one was held by a gallery.  I also have watched with interest several online contests over the last months, two sponsored by A Singular Creation and some others which will remain unnamed and unlinked.

And the results?

Predictable.

  

Results of the Real World Contests

Two of the real world juried art contest were too obviously rigged. Respectively, the results were:

  • the art chosen for the prizes of first, second, third, and runner up, all by artists who were members of importance within the membership ranks of the sponsoring association,
  • the art chosen for prizes were all based upon the popularity of the individual instead of upon the merit of the art

Another real world juried art contest obviously wasn’t rigged, the sponsoring association having no vested interest in art, but rather in community, and the artist’s works placing highest, judged by art experts hired to do so, holding true merit.  Even while I would have, in some cases, chosen differently, I couldn’t argue with the judge’s decisions…which, by the way, they enumerated.

In the two open shows:

  • Again, one of them showed obvious predetermined agenda, the agenda being the promotion of one particular company’s product which, upon deep research, proved to be a sustaining sponsor of the organization holding the contest.
  • The other demonstrated just and fair adjudication based upon merit of the art.

 Now, the gallery show:

The art which won here was all art by artists who, though prohibited by the rules from being artists affiliated with the gallery, either had been previously affiliated with the gallery prior to the contest or became affiliated with the gallery after the contest.  No artist unaffiliated with the gallery, either before or after, won any prize.

  

Results of the Online Art Contests

Looking at the results of the online contests, the contests came in two forms:

  • those judged by popular vote,
  • and those judged by qualified, independent judges.

Predictably, art which was judged by electronic voting by visitors instead of by independent judges wound up being a popularity contest for the most part.  The one exception was A Singular Creation’s contests which, while still suffering the “by popular vote” syndrome of friends gathering to pick friends, were fairer in that votes cast by the same IP were thrown out.  However, by and large, these contests aren’t fair and unbiased venues.

The one art contest I watched with interest was one which didn’t require an entry fee, offered no cash prize, but was judged by a panel of independent artists.  The results were fair and unbiased, except that it was obvious which media was most favored by the panel of judges.

  

The Bottom Line

Contest results aren’t always about whose art is best, or even an equitable venue for all artists entering them.  Be aware, and only enter those which suit your needs and goals.

zentao trademark and logoFor the artist looking for online exposure and sales, as well as POD printing and/or framing, one oft-used venue is the “art-for-sale-here” and “sell-your-art-here” dot coms.  There are a few critical things an artist should explore and understand before joining either of these types of dot coms, though.

  1. As with the gallery mentioned last week, who is the dot com’s customer?  The artist, the art buyer, or both? 
  2. Do you, the artist, retain complete control of your work? (Nothing like having copies of your work remain on the website after you no longer belong to the venue, and, worse, having your artwork proliferated around the Net completely beyond your say so and control at Amazon.com, EBay, or… because your “Sell-Your-Art-Here” dot com has an affiliation with these companies.)
  3. Do you, the artist, retain your copyrights, the dot com only permitted limited publication rights to display and rights to print-on-demand for a buying customer?

Many “Sell-Your-Art-Here” and “Art-For-Sale-Here” dot coms make their money by:

  • offering premium listings and space to subscribing artists
  • receiving a commission for all art sold, either a flat rate or a percentage
  • receiving payment for “value added,” such as POD reproduction, matting, and/or framing

It is imperative for the artist looking at an online venue to figure out who reckons as that dot-com’s primary customer.  Is it the artist, the art buyer, or both?

  

The “Sell-Your-Art-Here” dot com

If the dot com’s primary customer is the artist, then, unlike the real world gallery, that’s a good thing because the dot com is going to do everything possible to keep you, the artist, happy.  You are their primary customer, the one who puts bread and butter on their table.  They aren’t going to do anything that’s going to compromise that relationship…unless you are so very difficult that you are more trouble than you’re money’s worth, or you are so very incorrigible as to bring them negative publicity. :D

  

The Art-For-Sale-Here dot com

These dot coms focus on delivering art to the art buyer.  That’s their customer, not the artist.  Getting onto a good one usually means you must be a recognized “name artist” or your work must already be syndicated to one of the big art syndicates.

  

How about those dot coms which serve both the art consumer and the arist?

Well, here’s where things can get a bit nasty for you, the self-promoting artist.  If you aren’t selling art, they aren’t making anything, now are they?  That small fee you pay to be a part of their online art venue probably only covers your space and bandwidth, so where they expect to make their money is from selling your artwork, which means that, for you and your artwork to be of value to them, you must bring buying customers to their check-out register.  If you don’t, you can pretty much figure that, sooner or later, you might find yourself persona non grata and shoved out their virtual door without so much as a “fare thee well.” (Make sure you get ALL your art off their website and all their affiliate’s websites should this happen to you.)

For dot com’s who straddle the line or are just getting started, serving both the artists and the art buying customer, keep an eye on which is proving to be their most lucrative customer.  The moment that it becomes “the art buyer,” you can pretty much guarantee that they are going to move with “what sells” rather than with the less-than-outrageously successful self-promoting artist, especially the ”non-trendy,” no-name artist and the “just starting out” newbie.  They might even go so far as to dump all their self-promoting artists, opting for strictly syndicated works.

  

Some Words of Wisdom

For most “sell-your-art-here” dot coms, the fact is, both the artist and the art buyer are their customers.  Value-added shops like ImageKind.com provide self-promoting artists with a valuable service that can, if the artist successfully self-promotes, allow them to provide reprints of their work drop-shipped right from the printer with the plus that the artist doesn’t front the cost of printing, matting, and framing.  That’s a VERY GOOD DEAL.  But DON’T expect this kind of dot-com to promote you just because you buy a premium listing.  That’s YOUR job, not the job of the value-added printer/framer.

Realize that the “Sell-Your-Art-Here” dot com wants…DEPENDS…on you marketing them to the world by promoting your gallery that resides on their servers.  They figure quite rightly that one million wannabe artists all linking their respective website galleries  is going to help get them on top in major search engine rankings.  Those wonderful postings are also going to put their website in front of potential art buyers much better than all their paid-for search engine optimizing and paid for advertising.  …And they’re right.  That’s how some of the Internet’s biggest art venues made themselves “the name dot com in online art.”  You, Mr. and Ms. Artist, are their unpaid advertising and promotional agents. 

Be aware that, once that usefulness ends or is no longer needed, you become dispensable unless your art is making them money — as much or more money than, say, Van Gogh prints are making them for the same bandwidth, space, and effort. The moment your membership fees and art sales don’t produce, proving as valuable as consistent known sellers, and especially if dealing with you and your artwork winds up becoming more trouble and effort than dealing with syndicated art, then you are more liability than asset, which makes you summarily disposable. 

zentao trademark and logoI’ve been observing more than a few conversations crop up on online artist forums concerning “successfully marketing your art.” These are “hot topic” threads for artists on the Internet. 

The bottom line — making money from art…which translates to “making a living from art” — is the overwhelming desire of most who read and participate in these topics.  They are “hope-to’s” flocking with wide-eyed interest to any article and any information centered on successful art marketing and self-promotion (topics which, by the way, are often instigated and catalyzed by the owners or employees of the very online venues which stand to profit from each successful-artist-wannabe’s efforts at self-promotion).  The artists frequenting these venues and voraciously reading these topics call themselves “fine artists,” and call what they create ”fine art.” But are they, in fact, fine artists, and do they, in fact, create fine art?

Let’s explore a bit, and a good place to start might be to to look at some categories and definitions of “artist.”  Generally, here are a few:

  • print artist: someone who designs and creates art specifically for print and poster reproduction;
  • graphic artist: an artist who designs and creates images for an application or product, many times with text and images designed to communicate a message or for a complete production such as a movie, book, or CD release;
  • illustrator: creates art to illustrate a book, an article, or an idea, their own or another’s
  • commercial artist: an artist who creates art for profit, is paid to create art, or works-for-hire;
  • design artist: an artist who conceives designs and who also may develop them;
  • fine artist: an artist who is expressing from emotion or inspiration and creates with the intent of producing something of beauty or meaning, something of aesthetic value rather than something calculated to produce income or for utility for practical application (FYI, by the way, the fine arts are historically classified as visual art, photographic art, dance, sculpture, and music).

Were I to classify these in a hierarchy, I would make three broad categories, none more prestigious than another:

A. Fine artist

B. Illustrator, print artist, design artist, and graphic artist (amateur only) I can list print artists, graphic artists, design artists, and illustrators under commercial art, but I cannot list them under fine art at all.  And I cannot list them under commercial art if they are “for-the-love” hobbyists, not  pursuing steady payment from or a career in graphics and/or illustration.

C. Commercial artist

  • professional print artist
  • professional graphic artist
  • professional illustrator
  • professional design artist

(Professional means pursuing a profession in, a profession meaning that which affords them the means to make a living from their efforts.)

In this category, that is, the “commercial artist,” we have the professional painter, professional photographer, professional [insert visual media]…which is, in fact, a professional graphic artist.

Note that we do not have a proliferation of the phrase ”professional fine artist.”  Nobody claims to be a “professional fine artist.” Why?  Because linking the terms  “professional” and “fine art” is considered to produce an oxymoron by definition.

So, now, back to the question: Are people who are pursuing the “how-to-make-money-with-my-art” really fine artists producing fine art?

Some of them, yes.

Most of them, no.

And here’s the difference.

A fine artist creates art with the primary intent to create something which has intrinsic meaning to them, an expression of themselves catalyzed by inspiration, reaction, or emotion.  First and foremost, it is “their art,” not art produced specifically with the intent to produce them income and/or notoriety.

Contrast the commercial artist who creates art with the primary intent to make money and/or fame and popularity, for themselves and/or for another.

So who are most of the artists proliferating the online art venues? 

Answer that question for yourself.  Here’s the measure:

Do you create your art regardless of whether it will or will not turn a profit, be that profit fame or fortune?  Then you are a fine artist.

Do you create art to illustrate something? If so, you are a graphic artist or illustrator.  If you do this for others “on demand” and receive fame or fortune from it, you are a commercial graphic artist or illustrator.  If you do it “for the love” or to help someone…or to illustrate your own poetry, music, article or book, then you are not a commercial artist.

Do you create art for gain, specifically creating it with the intent to profit, be that profit fame or fortune? Then you are a commercial artist, not a fine artist.

So, who are the majority of artists frequenting the threads and topics about how to market their art and self-promote? 

A great many of them could be classified as fine artists, yes.  They create art first, then decide to market it after the fact.  But, at least half of them are, technically speaking, self-employed commercial artists, not fine artists.  Why? Because they are not producing art as an expression of self and/or inner vision — art first and foremost for art’s sake.  They are creating art with the specific intent to sell it, to make money from it, to produce a product that someone will pay them for with some sort of compensation, be that fame or money, preferably both.

Motive and intent are the measure, and only the artist really knows the answer.  However, a skilled eye can tell the motive and intent behind the art by studying the works as well as looking at the methods an artist uses to ”market” their art.

Does the artist change their original artistic expression until they find one which “catches on” and consumers or collectors buy?  Or is the change in their artistic expression due to “periods” or exploring different expressions and styles? The former means the artist is  commercial; the latter, a fine artist.

Does the artist produce works specifically to sell, or are they selling prints and ancillary products containing their art as incidental or secondary to the creation of original work? If the former, the artist is a commercial artist; if the latter, a fine artist.

Do buyers or collectors seek out the artist to ask if they have produced any new art rather than the artist “hawking” their originals to potential buyers and collectors? If so, the artist is a fine artist.  If the artist specifically and repetatively campaigns their art, producing it with intent to sell, they are a commercial artist.

Fine artists will enter contests, will show their works in galleries, will specifically produce works for a collector (occasionally), but what they won’t do is just  paint/photograph expressly to sell. In fact, often a fine artist won’t sell a work, simply because they want to keep it.  They might agree to sell prints or reproductions, and they might be induced to sell a work they love simply because the collector or buyer is persistent or offers them something they need/want enough to part with the work.  What they don’t do is to specifically create artwork for sale.

Ultimately the measure of whether what you do is fine art or commercial art comes down to calculation.  If the artist creates the work with the calculated intent of producing something to trade for fame and/or fortune (money), they are a commercial artist. If the artist creates because of inspiration, reaction, or as the result of emotion, expressing that inspiration into their chosen media, be it photographic, painting and drawing, sculpture, or any other media, then they are, in fact, a fine artist.

Which are you?  And did you start out as a fine artist, then, when your work didn’t sell, change your work in the hopes of producing something that would sell?  Then you may have started as a fine artist, but you became a commercial one, whether you are in fact successful or not.

It’s all in the motive; it’s all in the intent.

To quote from one post on one online forum:

“Good or appropriate marketing is often indicated as making what you can sell[,] not selling what you can make[.] -

“…Some organizations make their products[,] and then try to pursuade the potential customers to purchase what they have made.

“Other organizations[,] and often the most successful ones, make what they can sell[.] [I]n other words[,] they create products and services in response to what the customers need

Walter Paul Bebirian
http://forum.imagekind.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=257&page=1#Item_0

I would add, “what the customers need or will desire,” but this basically demonstrates the point.  The commercial artist is an artist whose intent is primarily to create art to profit by, rather than the art which “lives inside them, demanding expression.”

Now the question that really drives the point of calling oneself a “fine artist:”

Isn’t it better  to be a fine artist rather than a commercial artist?

Not in my opinion, no.  Again, intent and motive defines the difference, and, many commercial artists are also fine artists, that is, they create commercial art, but, in their leisure, they create fine art, as well.  What they honestly do, however, is to differentiate their commercial art from their fine art.  While both might be for sale, they actively “market” their commercial work.  Their fine art, however, might or might not be presented for sale, but it isn’t “marketed” in the same way as that which they create for the express purpose of turning a profit.

“But…,” say you.

I know. It sounds better to call yourself a “fine artist” as opposed to a “commercial artist.”  “Commercial” sounds so…so…mercenary.  There’s this stigma against “making money.” 

Well, that’s a false stigma, because, in truth, the majority of people want to make a living at what they love doing, not what they have to do to live well and happily.  Just because you want to call yourself a “fine artist” doesn’t change the fact that, if your art is created, not as art for art’s sake, but, instead specifically with the intent to profit, you are a “commercial artist.”  You can lie about it all you want, but those are the facts.

Now I suppose we could come up with a new category, the “commercial fine artist” (though, again, we create an oxymoron), but then what do we call what traditionally is defined as a “fine artist?” 

Your suggestions may be posted as comments below. I look forward to seeing them, because I certainly can’t think of any which roll well off the tongue.  “Purist fine artist?”  Ugh.  Nope.

…than someone who smiles a “clappy-the-hands, oh looky-lou” smile  with glow-in-the-dark teeth and squeaky voice all yummy, gummy.  Beware.  You can count on the fact that they aren’t doing anything for your best interests.  Especially when it’s obvious they have an “agenda” that expressly requires them to keep you happy (…and in the dark).  Especially beware if you see someone question and even challenge one of their “happy puppy, wag-the-dog” suggestions, and suddenly that questioner gets VERY quiet…or even disappears.  That’s all I’m saying.  I think you can figure it out.

 zentao.com trademark logo“Why Don’t You Promote Your Fine Art Online?” — a question I’m often asked.

Ah, I do.  I promote my digital fine art…well…sort of.  Well…not really.  It’s available, but I don’t “hawk it,” or spend inordinate amounts of time drumming up buyers.  But, honestly, my real world and digital fine art already has plenty of homes to live in, thanks.  Do I want yards and yards of my stuff decorating every house in urbanville?  Not really.  Why not?  Well, because, with fame and prestige comes a very nasty price.  You GOTTA do it, and you GOTTA produce to expectation.  Guess what?  I produce.  To expectation. Already.  My graphic art keeps me hopping.  Why should I bake myself like doves in a pie with fine art, too, especially fine art?  If somebody wants something of mine, they can go over to ImageKind and get it there. Or they can email me and ask me to do something just for them.  And pay the price. 

I do professional graphic art for glossy mags, for websites, for pulp mags, for yon local newsletter…for anyone who asks for something that I want to do and think I can do (cues, those) , so long as they pay me, of course.  And, yes, they get the copyright.  Illustrating is just so much “yawn” to me.  There are a few pieces that I don’t let go of copyright, but most of it is just stuff that I look at and shrug.  Not so my fine art, digital or otherwise.  But mine is a very unique style — zen flow.  And, quite honestly, I don’t care if someone likes it or not.  The only opinion that matters to me with my fine art is mine.  Not true for my illustrations.  That stuff’s gotta have mass market appeal, it’s got to fit the article, story, product, or package it is going onto, it’s gotta “grab.”  So, you see, public opinion matters on art that has to do something.  My fine art doesn’t have to do a thing.  It just satisfies me when “it happens.”  Then I’m all grins and pour myself some wine.

BTW, there really are some hot digital graphic artists out there around the Internet.  And you won’t necessarily find them on art.com or the standard “find the artist” website.  Most of them that I really like do their art as an adjunct to making skins for .php apps.  Gotta love it. 

zentao.com trademark logoVan Gogh was a successful artist…after his death. His much sought paintings that continue to make money — lots of money — were scorned during his lifetime.  Don’t be stupid and let the art dealers make money while you get nothing.  At least make sure your heirs rake in the profits, even if you’ve already got both feet in the urn…or grave. :D

zentao.com trademark logo“Sell your art here” sites are rampant on the Internet.  Here’s the truth.  How they make their money is by providing a service to artists who hope to sell to consumers.  It’s you, the artist, who makes them successful.  Here’s how: You, the artist, open a gallery, either for free, or, for a premium space, by paying a fee to them.  Nothing wrong with that.   Now comes the bennies for the art site:  You put a link to that gallery on your own website which is already ranked as an art site, even if it is way down in the 500k search engine rankings.  That’s a quality link in search engine speak.  And when you and all the other artists who have galleries on the site link to them, you are bucking up their ranking.   Now you, the artist, also go all around the Internet promoting yourself and your work, adding your link wherever you can.  That draws potential consumer traffic, but it also again adds link weight.  And it usually will draw other artists to investigate the site, artists who, if they sign up, perpetuate the cycle all over again.   Let’s face it.  You, the artist, are their bread and butter, usually paying them money to show your work, and providing them with free promotion and advertising, free Search Engine Ranking help by scattering their links wherever art can be sold.  You work so they rank higher, and, meanwhle, your work winds up buried with 7000 other artists, all this in exchange for a chance to sell your work.  Value-added sites like ImageKind are great boons to the artist, providing a POD (print-on-demand), matting, and framing service for interested customers, but be careful to check your print quality before selling to customers.  ImageKind produces very excellent results, but some others have lower print quality standards. Notably, however, big artists usually aren’t found in their rosters, except for the site itself selling prints of their work…which print rights they buy.  Big artists sell through one or another of the syndications, Getty images being one such operation.  

So, does it benefit you as an artist to maintain a gallery on one, two, or multitudes of these sites?  Maybe.  For search ranking.  But as a promotional venue for your displaying your work?  No.  Your personal website and blog are your best promotional venues.

zentao trademarkToday, let’s look at online artists communities.  Are they good for you?  That depends on your needs.  If you want to sell art or to land an agent, no.  They won’t help you, except, of course, if someone there can refer you, which happens VERY rarely.  If you want a place to socialize, get feedback, discuss the art-world and trends, then yes.  But beware.

Online art groups, much like their real world cousins, are supposed to be places (depending on the resident hegemony and power clique) where you can find help for various art-related problems, emotional support from other artists, receive critiques, and can socialize.  They are great time wasters, though, so be advised. Also always remember that most of these communities require you to adhere to the “party line.” Deviate from that resident perspective, and you will find yourself unfairly branded in unflattering ways or shown the door.  An analogy would be a political forum claiming to be open to all political debate, but the resident “in” crowd is hostile to anything not completely applauding right-wing or left-wing demagoguery.  That isn’t the case for all online art communities, but finding good ones, open-minded ones, that suit you will require hours and days of “lurking.”  Mostly what you will find are online art communities which require membership to applaud and promote one specific perspective and all counter-perspectives are ridiculed, edited, or summarily deleted, their authors removed from the population. Also remember that some things are best left unsaid, even in democratic societies (These are few and far between.) because the site owner(s) must keep a strong rein on matters which could legally jeopardize them.