When
you begin your next project, will you be
using the same musicians you've been
using lately?
Some yes, some no. Some of the people I
take on the road are not too efficient in
the studio and vice-versa. Plus there are
a few new people I want to try out.
Are you going to use Peter and Tommy
again on keyboards if they're available?
That depends on what the project is.
Peter did a lot of the work on Joe's
Garage; Tommy just didn't seem to be
suited for it. When we first went into
the studio, Pete was back in Vienna and
Tommy started the album off. He was
always jamming around. We had so much
trouble trying to make him behave like a
studio musician and get down to business
that when Peter came back from Vienna, I
tried him for a couple of days and it was
a lot more efficient. With Tommy, we
worked for several days and wound up with
two tracks, whereas with Peter, we could
do two or three tracks a day. They're
equipped differently. Tommy is definitely
a creative keyboard player with a good
musical mind, but in the discipline
department we had some problems. He just
can't control himself to sit down and
play something simple that's required for
a simple song. So Tommy plays on only two
songs on all six sides of Joe's
Garage; the rest of the keyboard
work is Peter. For other things that I
do, Tommy is probably better qualified
than Peter. Tommy reads a lot better and
has a totally different kind of musical
ear. It just turned out that he wasn't
what I needed for Joe's Garage.
You see, there's very little keyboard
work on it. What was needed was vocal
accompaniment, because it's basically a
vocal album. We needed some tracks laid
down on a Wurlitzer electric piano,
without any jazz motives or cadenzas.
That's all I wanted. There are a lot of
keyboard players in the world who cannot
imagine that that would be fun to do.
Tommy is one of 'em. Peter wasn't all
that thrilled about it either, because
he's basically a jazz guy too, but in his
case you can say, "Now, Peter, stop
playing the jazz and just play
this," and he'll do it. You have to
tell Tommy 18 times. The first few
sessions were very chaotic. I hate to
have to act like an umpire or referee and
go scream at everybody because they're
jamming. I don't pay 200 dollars an hour
studio time to have guys go in there and
jazz out. If you want to practice, do it
at home; don't do it in the studio. The
studio is the time to make the record.
Could you tell us what keyboards
you've used in your band recently?
I have a lot of synthesizers. I've got an
E- mu, a Yamaha CS-80, three
Electrocomps, a Syn-Key, a string box, a
Clavinet, a Pianet/Clavinet combination,
a Yamaha electric grand, and two
Wurlitzers. I've got a warehouse full of
keyboards. A lot of my synthesizers are
going to be mounted on a semi-permanent
basis over in my studio. In the control
room, there's going to be one master
keyboard that's patchable out to the
other synthesizers, so that instead of
one big toot coming out, you play the
keyboard and the individual voices can be
played in the live echo chamber through
eight speakers going through an air space
with stereo microphones in the chamber.
You can set it up for eight totally
different sounds, and they'll be coming
at you in an air space and will sound
more like music instead of electronics.
Are you going to be getting any more
instruments when your studio is finished?
Yeah, I'm gonna buy some more. I'm going
to get a harpsichord and a celeste. I
already have a Bosendorfer Imperial
grand. I don't have a Rhodes right now,
and I'm thinking about buying one. Plus
maybe one more synthesizer. Other
Purchases for the studio include
percussion.
Tommy was saying something about a
modified organ you had.
Yeah, the B-3. I had it transistorized
and put in a road case, and I put a
voltage follower on it. I put the outputs
on the Hammond so that you can run the
Minimoog or any other modern synthesizer
with it. I also had a special set of
Syn-Drums so that you could get a scale
of 61 bongos or 61 tom-toms or 61
woodblocks or whatever. The box is the
guts of two Syn-Drum units with higher
quality oscillators keyed to the voltage
that's put out by the follower. So when
you play a scale, you can get any of the
Syn-Drum sounds along with the sound of
the organ. You can fix it so that you
have two separate Syn-Drum sounds
tracking parallel to one keyboard, or you
can have the lower keyboard with its
notes plus one Syn-Drum.
You're not using it now?
No, we didn't take it on the last tour.
It was too much of a temptation for Tommy
to noodle on. It's got a lot of
possibilities
Any other modifications on your
equipment?
I'm having modifications done on all my
keyboards to bring them up to studio
quality sound. This includes rebuilding
the preamps in all of them and having the
Rhodes done in stereo. I'll probably have
the stereo treatment done on the
Glavinets and the Wurlitzers too.
Who does your work?
Claus Wiedmann and David Gray. But Claus
decided to take a little vacation.
What type of amplification do your
keyboard players have?
Each guy has a Tycobrahe cabinet with two
15s, a midrange horn, and a couple of
tweeters powered by a 300-watt Crown
amplifier, plus his own mixing board.
What about the miking?
There's
no miking; it's all direct into the PA.
Ours is called a Bonwelke and we use four
stacks about 15 feet tall on a side. lt
uses BGW power amps. There are four-way
crossovers, with compression built into
each band of the crossover so we don't
blow speakers. We use Yamaha boards that
have about 50 or 60 inputs.
What
kinds of effects lines do you use?
I
usually tell 'em not to use any, because
they're so damn noisy. The biggest
problem with sound on the road is that
when you're using large amplification,
you also have large amplification of the
noises within the instruments themselves.
Everybody wants to stick a flanger or a
Bi-phase or something on their
instruments, and those effects are nice,
but they're noisy. If the instrument is
sitting there in idle, it's still putting
out this crud into the system. Also,
these things usually reduce the heaviness
of the instrument, so if, say, you put a
Rhodes through a Bi-phase you get this
horrible clipping sound if the guy really
wants to play it hard. If the guy is
really banging on it, the voltage he's
putting out is driving the box crazy. It
makes distortion. Naturally, the keyboard
player is enraptured with what he's
doing, just wailing away, but the kids
out in the audience are hearing this big
crackle, this unmusical noise. It's
irritating.
With
as many guitars and keyboards as you've
been using lately, any added distortion
would really muddy up the sound.
I
really prefer a clean sound, especially
from the keyboards. The main thing that
bothers me about keyboard players is from
the time they learn to play synthesizer,
the biggest thing they want to do is
sound like a guitar. You've got these
Minimoog players who think they finally
sound like Jimi Hendrix. There's no way;
it's not gonna happen. Basically, folks,
let's face it: A synthesizer is not
designed to make that kind of noise. It's
a bleak little instrument. How can it
have the wonderful tones and expressive
capabilities of the electric guitar
itself? These guys are spending bucks on
bucks just trying to sound like an
electric guitar. If they want to be a
guitarist, why don't they get one and
learn how to play it? It's a real time-
waster for people to learn how to make
guitar-like sounds that are so cliched.
Who needs to hear it?
What do
you mainly want, then, from your
keyboardists?
The
thing I'm looking for out of a keyboard
section is definition. They're playing
single-line instruments that add a clean
edge to the guitar sounds that might
otherwise be fuzzy. That tends to make
the ensemble sound a little more
coherent. I don't need extra fuzz or
extra flange or extra tweeze-edge. The
other thing that is difficult to do when
orchestrating for multiple keyboard
setups is to convince the keyboard
players that a simple part assigned to
them is the thing that's gonna do the job
and to have them play it that way every
night. There's so much temptation to jazz
out. Jazz-oriented keyboard artists are
the worst thing to happen to
orchestration; they just can't fathom it.
In concert, especially with electric
instruments, the sound is so thick that
you don't need 12-note chords on the
piano, much less on two keyboard setups.
You need single lines that are played
cleanly that come out the right way,
playing with the rest of what's going on.
To
play your music, you need people who can
really play well, and they all probably
want to play a lot.
That's
true in every form of music. Guitar
players are the same way. It's hard to
convince a guitar player that a few notes
are going to get the job done better than
a million notes. This is a problem I face
as a composer and an orchestrator;
musicians always look at it like anyone
who tells them what to play is inhibiting
their lifestyle. But unless there is
organization, the music is always going
to sound like a big jam session. Once the
musicians learn the songs in rehearsal,
once they learn the arrangements and we
get out on the road, the songs sound
good. But as soon as the lights go on and
the audience claps a few times, everybody
starts adding their own little things. By
the end of a tour, a lot of things sound
like chaos. This is one of the reasons
why some people lose their jobs.
But
at the same time, they have to play the
music expressively.
Well,
see, the music is based on contrasts,
contrasts between things that are very
simple and things that are very
complicated. If everything is complicated
all the time, there is no contrast. Not
only that, there is no contact with the
audience. They can't handle it. They
don't want to be baffled by 32nd-notes
ripping around them constantly for two
hours in a hockey rink. That's no fun to
listen to. If you want to sound like
you're actually doing something, it has
to be put in a setting where it can show
up. That's why if a guy is playing solo
on keyboards and wants to whiz around,
the accompaniment that the band provides
him is usually kept to bass and drums
with- out everybody else chiming in, so
that you can hear what the keyboard
player is doing on his own. lt just seems
to work better acoustically in a hall to
thin things out. Another struggle that
concerns the acoustics of a hall is that
oftentimes what you sound like onstage is
not what you sound like out in the
audience. The rigs that I provide for the
keyboard players to monitor themselves
with are really elaborate. Each guy can
sound like a million bucks to himself,
but they always crank the bass up so they
can rattle their groin while they're
doing it. This does not necessarily
translate to the audience out front
because they get so much bass happening
up on stage that it muddies the sound up.
the mixer is always telling them to take
some bass off, and this makes them
unhappy that they can't give themselves a
scrotal massage while they're playing. At
the end of the show, you have these
keyboard players walking around like
you'd stabbed them in the heart because
the mixer told them to lower the low end
out of their setup or told them to play
softer. This is the battle that goes on
all the time, trying to get good keyboard
sounds out of a P.A. Unless everybody
modifies their sound to fit the hall, the
music suffers, the show suffers, and the
audience suffers because they don't get
to hear what the intent was.
When
you have so many instruments, do your
sound checks go on a long time?
Not
necessarily, because if you have a good
mixer he can do the necessary things at
the sound check. The thing that holds
them up is broken equipment, and when you
have a lot of stuff there are a lot of
possibilities for a busted wire or a
ground loop. That's why, when we tour,
there's an average of two roadies for
every guy in the band. It's not that
every guy has two little servants to look
after his equipment, but counting all the
facilities necessary to set up a show,
the crew is twice as big as the band.
Do
you carry substitute keyboards in case of
breakdown?
We
don't carry any extras. If something
breaks down, it gets fixed. We carry guys
and the equipment to fix it.
Did
you ever work with two keyboard players
before your current personnel?
Before
the band that did Sheik Yerbouti?
How about Don Preston and Ian Underwood?
I've done two keyboards, two drums, a lot
of variations. One of these days, I'll
probably try two percussionists if I can
find two percussionists that can work
together. That's a real problem. Usually
guitar players don't have problems
playing in ensembles. You see bands with
three guitarists and while there may be
some competition there, they do
ensemblize, playing harmony runs and
stuff like that. But with keyboard
players, it's cutthroat. It's cutthroat
with drummers and percussionists too.
They always love to show each other up.
Why
did you decide to go with two keyboard
players at this time?
Because
of the orchestrational possibilities.
When George Duke was in the band, a
second keyboard player would have been a
waste of time, partly because of the type
of stuff we were doing. George is so
diverse; he can play just about any
style, and he's got the discipline to
play parts. He really understands how to
comp; he's a really well-rounded
musician. But people like George don't
grow on trees. Sometimes to replace the
guy who is so diverse, you need two guys
who can fit into each other's
liabilities.
What
about the band you had with Eddie Jobson
?
Well,
there were a lot of problems having the
band with Eddie, because his priorities
were in peculiar locations. But I don't
want to say anything bad about him.
How
much freedom do you give your synthesizer
players in terms of patches?
They
can do what they want to do on their
solos, but as far as the orchestrated
parts of the show go, they're all
pre-decided in rehearsals.
At
the rehearsals, do you set the
synthesizers up the way you want them?
I
specify the sounds, but I don't
personally go over and patch 'em. I say
the E-mu will sound like a bright brass
section and the Electrocomp will sound
like French horns, and leave it that way.
Then
they come up with the patches to get the
sound that you specify?
Right.
Then they set 'em up that way each day on
the road.
So
you try to have all your patches set
before you go onstage?
Well,
with the E-mu, we just let it sit in one
setting for the brass, and the CS-80 is
all push-button. In the case of Sheik
Yerbouti, we took the F-mu on the
road and had it set up as what you call a
dedicated system, where it was
permanently set up to sound like a brass
ensemble, a lot of trumpets and
trombones. The Electrocomps were pretty
much set up permanently to sound like
French horns. That was the setup on
"Yo' Mama" [from Sheik
Yerbouti].
Do
you use the CS-80 for any brass sounds?
The
CS-80 has a fair brass sound, but not
nearly as good as the E-mu. The string
sound on the CS-80 is real nice, though,
especially if a guy has good hand
control, because by the amount of
pressure you apply to the keys, you can
make some voices, say in a string
quartet, have vibrato or make them
softer. It's very expressive. If you've
got good touch control, you can make it
sound great. That's one thing that Tommy
does very well. I came to a rehearsal one
day and he was playing "The Eric
Dolphy Memorial . Barbecue" [from Weasels
Ripped My Flesh] , as a string
quartet on the CS-80, and it sounded
fabulous.
Do
you prefer to use synthesizers now
instead of horn sections, or does it
depend on the type of music involved?
It
depends on the type of music. For
instance, if you are playing a
synthesizer that makes a brass ensemble
sound and you take six fingers and make a
six-note chord and it comes out in tune
and loud enough to compete with electric
guitars, then you are doing the right
thing. For two reasons: One, It's easier
to get a balance acoustically, and two,
chords and things like that really tire
out brass players over a long period of
time. Just playing whole-notes is a real
boring job for a brass player. It always
sounds good, but they always hate to do
it because horn players too like to play
a million notes. There isn't a horn
player alive that likes to play
background harmony for a guitar player.
They just don't like that, and ultimately
they hate their lives; you take them on
the road and no matter how , much money
you pay them, they don't like their lives
because they're not out there noodling
away. You begin to feel sorry for them,
and that brings you down. You feel that
you can't play for too long because those
guys on horns are going to go to sleep
back there. So that's one of the best
things about a brass-sounding
synthesizer: You can get a brass-like
sound in a live performance without
breaking the hearts of a number of people
who blow on things.
Do
you work out all your orchestrations on
acoustic piano?
It
depends what kind of stuff it is. Some of
the complicated sections like the bridge
in the wet T-shirt contest (from Joe's
Garage] are all written out. The
musicians get the music and they're
supposed to go home and memorize it. Then
when they get the notes under their
hands, we figure out what sounds we're
gonna use for it, then practice it till
we get it up to speed. But other
arrangements can be just a bass line,
chords, and a lead. I'll hum it to 'em
and tell 'em the chords. It's all done
with sketches because there's such a
great resistance in rock and roll to
reading music. It's always a forced
situation. I can give them a piece of
paper with the notes on it and they think
that what they have in their minds is
better than what I have on the paper. So
I have to use the most stringently
enforced discipline. . There's always the
constant reminder of the paycheck at the
end of the week-- that they are getting
paid to play these notes. Some guys are
good about it and some guys are not. Two
guys that have been in the band that
aren't real fast sight-readers but can
learn the parts and the parts are
reliable are Arthur Barrow, the bass
player, and Warren Cucurullo, our
ex-rhythm guitarist.
When
synthesizers first started coming onto
the market in the early '70s did you
think that they were going to be as
influential as they've been?
I
thought that they would definitely catch
on, for sure. You know why? Because every
keyboard player always wanted to sound
like a guitar. And the day that somebody
makes one that really sounds like a
guitar, everybody'll buy it.
Do
you really think that has been the
primary motivation?
Well, I
think that keyboard players who are
soloists thought, "At last,
volume-wise, I can be competitive with
the guitars in the band." But I
think the idea that you could explore
some new audio territory was a strong
selling point for a lot of people.
Unfortunately, when they got the
instrument didn't understand how to work
it, you got some of the most boring
sounds on record coming out of them,
people doing the same ARP 2600 duck quack
sound.
Since
they've come on the market, would you say
there have been any significant
improvements in the instruments
themselves?
The
major improvement has been the polyphonic
improvement; that's a big one. But I
think the digital stuff that is coming
out is going to he even more of one.
In
what way?
Faster
recall of settings that you know,
settings that you make up yourself.
Patching is okay for a studio -- it's
even a little slow for the studio -- but
in live performance you've got to change
from one sound to another on the beat,
and that doesn't go along with patch
cords and making fine adjustments on your
instrument with tiny knobs. You don't
want to have your patch cords out and
your microscope out to make sure that
your low- frequency oscillator is set at
exactly the right rate so your vibrato
won't sound too peculiar, not when you're
trying to look cute to the teenage girl
in the third row.
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